If geeks love it, we’re on it

Project Zomboid: Giving Indie gaming a black eye?

Project Zomboid: Giving Indie gaming a black eye?

Project Zomboid survive

Seems appropriate...

Indie gaming has taken off lately, bringing us great titles like Limbo, Bastion, and anything in the Humble Bundles. Add the fact that Steam is making many independent companies’ dreams a reality, and it’s jolting when something goes wrong. Early this morning, Indie gaming got a bit of a black eye from the team over at Indie Stone.

The team is responsible for Project Zomboid, a promising zombie survival RPG that is currently in a pre-alpha stage. They took a page from Notch’s wildly successful Minecraft book, allowing the community to have access to continually updated builds—provided they’ve pre-ordered the final version. The project’s had a troubled past—most notably with both PayPal and Google Checkout with regard to accessing preorder funds from the community. The knockout blow, however, came today.

Lemmy101 on Twitter

Protip 1: Twitter is a stream of consciousness—collect your thoughts and think about what you're posting before you do it.

According to the lead developer, two laptops and his credit card were stolen from his house. Why is this important? The laptops had not only the most recent build’s source code, but the backups as well … on only those devices. This ominous tweet was how the theft was announced (Twitter account since deleted):

Two laptops robbed from flat. Last couple of months work on it stupidly backed up on tbe other. [sic]
Police on their way. Binky and nick out at a club. Feeling sick in tears. They came in my bedroom [sic]
We still have code but its basically before the last update. Tbis will probably finish us. Sorry let everyone down [sic]

The dev followed up this tweet with a few other gems, eventually indicating his drunkenness and turning on that same community that had supported him for so long. He had colorful choice words for anyone tweeting at him, called out Reddit for a thread describing the incident and eventually had to have the community manager reel him back in on an official statement and apology to the community. To be clear, it isn’t the act itself that I and many others are upset about—it’s how the whole thing was (and has been) handled.

Lemmy 101 on Twitter part 2

Protip 2: Don't chew out the community for your mistake

The issue here is that this reaction is likely to send ripples through the Indie community for years to come. Developers need money, that’s no secret. If you don’t have the financial backing of a studio, an investor, or a wealthy teammate, you’re going to call upon the community for help. The idea makes sense: pay now to support a product that (ideally) makes it to market and feel a sense of ownership over the final cut. After all, you helped make the game what it is today, right? Without that cash, the developer wouldn’t have been able to code the game.

However, the immaturity and poor business sense on display here is what reminds everyone that, essentially, I’m giving money to a stranger on the internet … a stranger who can do whatever he/she wants with it. Again, the theft is awful; stuff happens, I understand that, but you absolutely cannot take to Twitter and begin chewing out the same people that helped you get where you are today. They are in this mess too. When you essentially say “whoops, sorry… looks like we’re done, appreciate the help guys” and close up shop, your community is going to get angry. Your customers just got more tight-fisted, and you’ve now begun destroying what can be described as the strongest link (and most personally invested) for funding: the gaming community itself.

Lemmy101 on Twitter part 3

Protip 3: Don't justify people's accusations with ranty responses

There is no publisher to hype Indie games. They are perhaps the truest link between a development studio and the end consumer. Suggestions from gamers don’t have red tape, hoops or any other corporate BS to jump through. They make it straight to the people who need to see them. The way you handle yourself will make or break your sales and determine if you can continue to do what you love: develop games. So you can understand how it leaves a bad taste in gamers’ mouths when you start a war against them—especially a misguided one. They’re not to blame for poor data security, the developer is.

If gamers weren’t already, they’re now going to think twice before donating to the next upstart project they see showing promise. Further, this type of behavior gives both PayPal and Google Checkout further justification to tie up development funds for 30-90 days. Guess what happens when Joe the Plumber realizes the money he’s paid is for a product that will never get released? Refunds. Guess who gets stuck with the bill and has to honor those refunds? PayPal and Google. There’s no level of assurance that random internet guy is going to honor his word and release a final product, so why should the payment services believe you? Those services are going to build up a pool of money to draw against to ensure that their bases are covered. They have no reason to be footing a bill for someone else’s mistake.

Indie gaming is a breath of fresh air in a multi-billion dollar entertainment business that continues to grow every year. They aren’t the same cookie-cutter overpriced $60 FPSs that are pushed on the consumer every six months. Because of this, you can even argue they’re more important than the big AAA titles themselves. After all, it was modification teams that created Red Orchestra, Desert Combat, DOTA and TF2. So remember, when you develop for the community, make sure your footsteps are the ones worth following.

Comments

  1. Egypt Urnash Dude just had the dream he's been working on for the past several years fall apart. I think he's allowed to be stressed, angry, and incoherent. And probably not sober.

    Protip for the gamers: Don't pay more for an unfinished game than you'd be comfortable spending if the thing never went any further than what you have now. Eight bucks should not be enough to make you ask for a refund if you've gotten so much as a good day's enjoyment out of the thing; anything beyond that is lagniappe.

    Protip for the developers (and anyone else who has big projects in their computer): Back dat shit up. Automatically. Get a hard drive in an anonymous box, get a Time Capsule, have it back up to it automatically so you never have to think about it again. Cloud backups are dropping in price. Get some happening. Automatically. If shit happens - theft/disaster/whatever - you're only out the hardware and maybe one day's work.
  2. primesuspect
    primesuspect Dropbox is your friend.

    I agree that if people lost less than $10, it shouldn't give them the right to call the developers all kinds of horrible names and whatnot. Gamers can be a rabid and venomous bunch.

    And hey, nobody said the game was gone forever. The CM said they'd pick up and start working on it again. It will take longer, yes.

    Should the dev have gotten drunk and start telling fans to fuck off and die and whatnot? No. Idiot move.
  3. Starman
    Starman On the bright side, most indie devs appear to have a wonderful combination of professional decorum and personal, friendly sensibility that makes them a pleasure for the consumer to interact with. Cases like this appear to be an unfortunate aberration.
  4. BHHammy
    BHHammy As someone who's been personally following the Project Zomboid thing on and off for months, this greatly saddens me.

    We'd just gotten done about a month or so ago with what I'd dub "The Big Wait", in which the whole PayPal/Google Checkout thing tested the limits of many paying people's patience, and the stress limits of the community manager over how many people were hounding them with doubts, cynicism, and quite frankly some words that don't much bear repeating.

    Yeah, these devs have been through a lot. And honestly, folks are being kinda unreasonable. AND I can see where he'd feel the stress, considering in order to even more forward, they'd basically have to do a mini-repeat of "The Big Wait" after they'd quite strongly promised that there wouldn't be another one.

    That does NOT give the devs to act in the manner they did, though. Up until now, they've been pretty frosty about the whole thing. There -was- a post that was showing some cracks in the armor, but that was a post kindly telling folks to back off, and that they were doing the best they could. To pull something like this is not only extremely unprofessional, but you've now both -validated- your longtime naysayers, and completely blown whatever credibility you've had towards your most faithful and patient customers.

    Having SAID all of that, though...
    On the case of this being a black eye towards indie developers, I'd just like to say that this sort of thing happening to indie development wasn't a case of IF, it was a case of WHEN. It's a major shame it had to be these guys.
  5. primesuspect
    primesuspect I'm really sympathetic, I really am. Getting robbed is total bullshit, and nobody ever deserves to go through it. I am a gigantic supporter of Indie games, and I routinely give $5 on Kickstarter here and there to random Indie games, just to support the art.

    That said, there's just simply no excuse for not having backups. None.

    Just imagine a scenario in which Notch tweets: "Guys, so sorry, my house got robbed and my laptop with all Minecraft source code has been stolen. No backups, sorry."

    People would be a bit angry, yeah.
  6. MiracleManS
    MiracleManS I'm inclined to say that their rise was a bit faster than Notch's with Minecraft. I think Notch and the rest of Mojang have had a huge impact on how Indie games are perceived.

    while there's "no excuse", he does have SOME code left. It's not like it's all gone. He lost months of work. I refuse to believe some of us haven't gone through similar with Word documents or Excel spreadsheets.

    Did he handle it unprofessionally? Yes. Do I empathize? Hell yes. I don't hold it against them. They're a couple people who have managed to hit it big.
  7. BHHammy
    BHHammy Quick addendum here- when I say people are being unreasonable, I'm saying that the detractors were going overboard. I am NOT saying their overt anger at Indie Stone not keeping backups is unjustified. Stupid, STUPID move, especially with github and what have you in existence.
  8. Basil
    Basil
    I refuse to believe some of us haven't gone through similar with Word documents or Excel spreadsheets.
    Don't think many of us have been out soliciting money on the basis of those files though.

    Not having some form of offsite backup for your businesses mission critical files is both incredibly stupid and utterly unprofessional.

    But then this is the outfit that didn't feel it necessary to read the ToS for Google checkout and who's lead dev was throwing f-bombs at the userbase on twitter...
  9. RootWyrm
    RootWyrm
    Just imagine a scenario in which Notch tweets: "Guys, so sorry, my house got robbed and my laptop with all Minecraft source code has been stolen. No backups, sorry."

    Let's be realistic. Everybody thinks backups are somehow cheap and easy and a magical panacea, but the cold hard reality is: nope. People are saying that the guys didn't have any backups, but they did. They were mirroring the most recent changes between two independent machines. The problem is that both machines were stolen and were not sending data offsite every day.

    People have this misguided belief that "real developers" have some sort of elaborate backup scheme with multiple layers of redundancy, but they really don't. I can't name names, but I know of a large house that relies on replicating between sites with snapshots. No tape, no offsite. If data gets corrupted, they have to be aware, then roll back to a prior snapshot. Corruption is replicated as-is between sites, meaning it spreads. Sometimes, they don't have a prior snapshot with clean data less than a week old. So they just lost a week of work. Until the game actually ships, they don't actually ship any data offsite at all. Others don't even have a second site; they rely entirely on snapshots and RAID. Maybe they burn a DVD once a week or once a month. Only shipped products get put on backup tapes, and usually for a rather short period. Maybe a few years at most.

    Even if they had been shipping data offsite, which is not always reasonable either due to cost or complexity, they had a perfectly reasonable backup model. Most businesses only send data offsite once a week and don't keep multiple copies in independent locations with version control. Did they make OTHER mistakes? Yes. Did they lose the whole repo? No. They lost the data since the last offsite. Here's the thing: the key problem, the lost data and equipment, could happen to even 'professionals' - and has. Burglary is generally not something you expect or anticipate happening, and pretty much every system is vulnerable to it. If the media holding your backup is stolen or destroyed, that's that.

    Does that forgive the way they handled it? Nope. Should they have been backing up more regularly? Hard to say - one one hand they say 'a lot,' I heard 'a month' and 'a few weeks.' They backed stuff up, they had a fairly reasonable strategy for it, and then some asshole made off with the original and the local copies. He took the media with the backups. If they'd put it on external drives, it wouldn't have helped any either. Laptops and portable drives, both easy to carry, pretty easy to sell on the street.

    Don't worry. These guys made enough other mistakes that forgiving the one, doesn't make up for the whole. (Or maybe worry. I don't know. Up to you.)
  10. BuddyJ
    BuddyJ I totally disagree. Real developers DO have elaborate strategies. Off-site backups are cheap, and their strategy was not reasonable; it was reckless.

    My product's codebase is in a private cloud-based repository with every release also stored in two remote tier 4 data centers. Should a tornado take out my office, the most we'd lose is 30 minutes of work. When you're dealing with other people's money you have an obligation to protect their investment. These guys crapped the bed.
  11. primesuspect
    primesuspect Disagree.

    Dropbox would have solved this problem. $10 a month.
  12. PirateNinja
    PirateNinja When I started my dev project we bought up svn service from codesion for an extremely reasonable price. I have every single revision of our souce code backed up there going through February. Meanwhile, 2 out of 4 dev workstations I use do image backups to a nas. That nas has a dropbox account for itself that copies over the drive images to dropbox twice a week.

    Someone could kill all my developers (me included), steal all of our dev machines, nuke codesion's data center, and light my nas on fire. We would still have our code backed up and easily restored for the new living developers and in the worse case loose 3 days of work.

    I think this system is costing me $40/mo and took about 4 hours to setup. Meanwhile I'm sure DropBox and Codesion have offsite data backups as well.

    So, just another disagree vote based on my experience. Backups for small team development projects are cheap and easy and a magical panacea, but they take 4 hours of effort and a small monthly fee
  13. GHoosdum
    GHoosdum
    Disagree.

    Dropbox would have solved this problem. $10 a month.

    Only if the source is over 2GB, otherwise, FREE.
  14. jared
    jared Had I donated, regardless of the amount, I'd be pretty miffed myself.

    Getting your stuff stolen is a bitch, don't get me wrong, but with cloud storage being as cheap as it is that's not an excuse. Had they maybe lost a week worth of work that would of been excusable, but not *months*.

    As everyone else mentioned, Dropbox would of fixed the problem - likely for free. I use Dropbox, but I'm also a huge fan of BackBlaze which backs up your entire system (regardless of size) for a flat $5/month. Why the developer didn't take a step like this is beyond me.

    It really does suck because as people on reddit are quick to point out, it will really make you think twice next time.
  15. RootWyrm
    RootWyrm
    Disagree.

    Dropbox would have solved this problem. $10 a month.

    Risk versus reward. Dropbox has had numerous glaring security problems widely publicized. Would you trust somebody with Icrontic's entire life force when they've had more than 3 incidents where anyone in the world could have just stolen it? (Answer: oh HELL no.) I could see Amazon S3 or HP Cloud Services (if you got into the beta,) but they both have their own issues - one has no availability guarantee or data safety guarantee, and the other's a beta. Bleeding edge is cool and all, but not how you handle data that critical to your business.

    Second, they've already said they had offsites. When you're dealing with version control systems, you can't just randomly copy things up into the cloud. Version control integrity takes priority, always and forever. And that's not a point up for debate here, either - that comes straight out of people at Bioware, EA, and Blizzard. And that doesn't cover your IP assets such as artwork, levels, and so on which are also kept under version control.

    Not everyone is comfortable with keeping their source with someone else, and for good reason. My company uses replication and offsite tape because we read all the terms of service very carefully and understand exactly what it all means and consulted with a lawyer. Most of them have more holes than a sieve, where they can lose all your stored data and have no recourse. They can be down for 5 days, and you're just SOL. And still others end up with a perpetual right to more or less take your code and release it as their own product.

    Either way, people are way to obsessed with the backups. As I said: it is fact that big publishing houses do about the same, or a worse job of it. These guys have made plenty of other, much larger, uglier mistakes in handling this entire thing from day one.
  16. Thrax
    Thrax Wall of last word crits you for 452 damage.
  17. GHoosdum
    GHoosdum TL; DR shield grants over 9000 magical armor bonus.
  18. primesuspect
    primesuspect You can always count on lots of underlines, bold, and superlatives with Wall of Last Word.

    On a side note: I DO trust Dropbox with a lot of very important Icrontic stuff. Hasn't let me down yet.
  19. Cliff_Forster
    Cliff_Forster RootWyrm, are you actually defending these guys?

    There is absolutely no excuse for not storing important data back ups off site. It's not backed up properly until then, it's as simple as that, I don't care what it is, if its important, you need an off site copy. If you don't trust the commercial cloud storage solutions, there are other ways to do it, but if its important you will find a way to get that data in two places. It's really that simple and anyone familiar enough with computing to code a game knows better.

    There is absolutely no reason to defend these guys for not backing up off site. The only possitive thing I can say is that I actually think its pretty cool that he was candid about it to a point where it might help remind other people not to make the same mistake.
  20. BuddyJ
    BuddyJ /me casts Ray of Reality

    git commit -m "STFU"
    git push origin master
  21. jared
    jared If you can't trust cloud services then you sure as shit can't trust PayPal or Kickstarter...
  22. primesuspect
    primesuspect
    jared wrote:
    If you can't trust cloud services then you sure as shit can't trust PayPal or Kickstarter...

    Or gmail.
  23. Evan They're allowed to handle the situation however they want. One of the reasons they don't work at some corporation is so they don't have to handle everything with some BS PR statement - they can just tell you to STFU. Oh, and by the way, no one has a right to a refund. You can check their site, desura (for alphafunding) and anywhere else you can buy the game - YOU ARE NOT GUARANTEED TO GET ANYTHING (Besides the alpha). Alphafunding/Crowdfunding is a gamble, and you can very easily pay for nothing. That's how it works, and everyone knew that ahead of time. No one has a right to complain about the status of the game.
  24. primesuspect
    primesuspect
    "They're allowed to handle the situation however they want"

    Yet
    "No one has a right to complain"

    So, the devs have rights but the people who fund them don't. Got it.

    That's a complete fucktard contradiction, Evan. Are you a complete fucktard?
  25. fatcat
    fatcat Back yer shit up. Simple as that.

    I have Catalyst 3.6 drivers and iTunes 5.0 and highpoint rocketraid 404 drivers and Abit BP6 drivers still backed up.

    :D
  26. fatcat
    fatcat and yes I have windows98se backed up :p
  27. ardichoke
    ardichoke The 3-2-1 principle of backups. Always have 3 copies of everything on at least 2 different mediums with at least 1 off-site.

    Of course, I say this but I rarely follow my own advice. Still, I'm not charging people for anything that relies on my data.

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!